Comments on: The best way for Adobe to save Flash is by killing it http://www.hindsightlabs.com/blog/2010/01/31/the-best-way-for-adobe-to-save-flash-is-by-killing-it/ We shoulda known. Sun, 19 Feb 2012 23:21:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Daniel Macias http://www.hindsightlabs.com/blog/2010/01/31/the-best-way-for-adobe-to-save-flash-is-by-killing-it/comment-page-1/#comment-1482 Daniel Macias Wed, 13 Jul 2011 21:50:00 +0000 http://www.stevenwei.com/?p=8#comment-1482 I've been well engrossed in both HTML/Flash for a long time now.  I've seen how both technologies have evolved throughout the years.  HTML(5) is making great strides.  Major browser vendors are finally working together to standardize the web (WHATWG).  In effect, browsers are coming up with new version more frequently and companies like Google Apps are no longer supporting legacy browsers (e.g. IE7).  HTML 5 is structured in such a way that it allows legacy browsers to still render correctly, so it's very much able to be used.  This is great news. News Flash! (no pun intended) Flash SWF's have been open since May 2008.  Flash has a mature, (real) cross-platform, gpu-accelearted, strong-typed OOP language that will very soon have a robust 3D API (Adobe Molehill).   HTML will take a LONG time for it to have these features.  Not only are browser vendors slow in adopting standards, but there are still tons of users still using legacy browsers.  Even if the canvas tag were finally supported by all browsers, it is still a very primitive 2D renderer (it doesn't even support layering, it's like a MS Paint program).  HTML's WebGL is still an EXPERIMENTAL technology.   Here's my point: For a highly animated, interactive, feature rich WEB APPLICATION, I would use Flash.  For SEO (crawling), accessibility, semantic-oriented WEB SITES that are to be exposed to a wide audience (esp. ipad/iphone), use HTML 5.  Of coarse, considering the specific requirements of every unique project is really the basis in which to choose the right tool for the job.  To say that Flash needs to be completely replaced by HTML is preposterous, they both have advantages and disadvantages. Also, competition is the reason these technologies are growing so fast.  Thanks Steven for this article - although you HTML 5 fan boys make me sick, you've stimulated an important discussion that's on many web designer/developers minds. PS>  I agree, Adobe needs to spend more resources in making kick-ass HTML/CSS/JS tools.  Dreamweaver is lacking in this department.  But as it's been said in previous comments, Adobe is working towards it. I’ve been well engrossed in both HTML/Flash for a long time now.  I’ve seen how both technologies have evolved throughout the years.  HTML(5) is making great strides.  Major browser vendors are finally working together to standardize the web (WHATWG).  In effect, browsers are coming up with new version more frequently and companies like Google Apps are no longer supporting legacy browsers (e.g. IE7).  HTML 5 is structured in such a way that it allows legacy browsers to still render correctly, so it’s very much able to be used.  This is great news.

News Flash! (no pun intended) Flash SWF’s have been open since May 2008.  Flash has a mature, (real) cross-platform, gpu-accelearted, strong-typed OOP language that will very soon have a robust 3D API (Adobe Molehill).   HTML will take a LONG time for it to have these features.  Not only are browser vendors slow in adopting standards, but there are still tons of users still using legacy browsers.  Even if the canvas tag were finally supported by all browsers, it is still a very primitive 2D renderer (it doesn’t even support layering, it’s like a MS Paint program).  HTML’s WebGL is still an EXPERIMENTAL technology.  

Here’s my point: For a highly animated, interactive, feature rich WEB APPLICATION, I would use Flash.  For SEO (crawling), accessibility, semantic-oriented WEB SITES that are to be exposed to a wide audience (esp. ipad/iphone), use HTML 5.  Of coarse, considering the specific requirements of every unique project is really the basis in which to choose the right tool for the job.  To say that Flash needs to be completely replaced by HTML is preposterous, they both have advantages and disadvantages. Also, competition is the reason these technologies are growing so fast. 

Thanks Steven for this article – although you HTML 5 fan boys make me sick, you’ve stimulated an important discussion that’s on many web designer/developers minds.

PS>  I agree, Adobe needs to spend more resources in making kick-ass HTML/CSS/JS tools.  Dreamweaver is lacking in this department.  But as it’s been said in previous comments, Adobe is working towards it.

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.hindsightlabs.com/blog/2010/01/31/the-best-way-for-adobe-to-save-flash-is-by-killing-it/comment-page-1/#comment-1425 Anonymous Mon, 18 Oct 2010 21:44:00 +0000 http://www.stevenwei.com/?p=8#comment-1425 You're a dumbass. Adobe has compiled to NATIVE APPS for YEARS (see Windows Projector (exe) and Mac Projector (hqx)). Compiling to a JAVASCRIPT-BASED APP would be a TOTAL PERFORMANCE FAIL. Not to mention, it would be technologically impossible, since JavaScript doesn't provide core features (e.g. access to GPU APIs, etc.) to implement the entire Flash Runtime. You're a dumbass. Adobe has compiled to NATIVE APPS for YEARS (see Windows Projector (exe) and Mac Projector (hqx)). Compiling to a JAVASCRIPT-BASED APP would be a TOTAL PERFORMANCE FAIL. Not to mention, it would be technologically impossible, since JavaScript doesn't provide core features (e.g. access to GPU APIs, etc.) to implement the entire Flash Runtime.

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.hindsightlabs.com/blog/2010/01/31/the-best-way-for-adobe-to-save-flash-is-by-killing-it/comment-page-1/#comment-1424 Anonymous Mon, 18 Oct 2010 21:36:11 +0000 http://www.stevenwei.com/?p=8#comment-1424 And FLASHBLOCK wouldn't be possible without FLASH!!! Isn't it nice to have ads delegated to a plugin you can block? If Flash goes away, those same ads will be re-created in HTML5, and you won't be able to block them so easily, as they'll be indistinguishable from the rest of the content on the page! (hahaha, Flash is NEVER going away... I'll single-handedly build a new Flash Player myself from the open SWF standard if Adobe stops supporting it... if it doesn't release the source code first. It's far too valuable as a web app dev platform, even for internal company use). And FLASHBLOCK wouldn't be possible without FLASH!!! Isn't it nice to have ads delegated to a plugin you can block? If Flash goes away, those same ads will be re-created in HTML5, and you won't be able to block them so easily, as they'll be indistinguishable from the rest of the content on the page! (hahaha, Flash is NEVER going away… I'll single-handedly build a new Flash Player myself from the open SWF standard if Adobe stops supporting it… if it doesn't release the source code first. It's far too valuable as a web app dev platform, even for internal company use).

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.hindsightlabs.com/blog/2010/01/31/the-best-way-for-adobe-to-save-flash-is-by-killing-it/comment-page-1/#comment-1423 Anonymous Mon, 18 Oct 2010 21:27:56 +0000 http://www.stevenwei.com/?p=8#comment-1423 Author of Article... you're full of it, because The Flash Plugin... IS FLASH.<br>It's a cross-platform hardware-accelerated content reader, renderer, and scripting language runtime, etc., that has NOTHING to do with a static, bloated, ancient text-based document format (HTML).<br><br>The Flash plugin, essentially IS a web browser. It has its own content model and display hierarchy <br>(SWF vs HTML), it's own rendering engine (capable of GPU acceleration and pixel shaders), and it's own scripting language (ActionScript 3 vs. JavaScript.... and ActionScript 3 beats the ass of JavaScript any day). It can even directly connect to a custom port over a socket.<br><br>Just because Flash happens to be implemented as a plugin, doesn't mean it's JUST a plugin. The advantage of being implemented as a plugin, is that you can piggyback on existing browser technologies, such as the implementations of HTTP and HTTPS communication protocols and other features that aren't really a part of the CONTENT RENDERING AND INTERACTION systems. The best thing for the WEB, would be for browsers to implement HTML as a plugin too.... so I could keep my favorite browser while also selecting my favorite HTML renderer. Wouldn't it be nice to keep your favorite browser, even if its default HTML plugin sucked... by loading a better HTML plugin. It would be nice to have that as a plugin. Screw your plug-in-phobia. Also, SWF is an open format, so in theory, other people CAN build their own flash plugins. Author of Article… you're full of it, because The Flash Plugin… IS FLASH.
It's a cross-platform hardware-accelerated content reader, renderer, and scripting language runtime, etc., that has NOTHING to do with a static, bloated, ancient text-based document format (HTML).

The Flash plugin, essentially IS a web browser. It has its own content model and display hierarchy
(SWF vs HTML), it's own rendering engine (capable of GPU acceleration and pixel shaders), and it's own scripting language (ActionScript 3 vs. JavaScript…. and ActionScript 3 beats the ass of JavaScript any day). It can even directly connect to a custom port over a socket.

Just because Flash happens to be implemented as a plugin, doesn't mean it's JUST a plugin. The advantage of being implemented as a plugin, is that you can piggyback on existing browser technologies, such as the implementations of HTTP and HTTPS communication protocols and other features that aren't really a part of the CONTENT RENDERING AND INTERACTION systems. The best thing for the WEB, would be for browsers to implement HTML as a plugin too…. so I could keep my favorite browser while also selecting my favorite HTML renderer. Wouldn't it be nice to keep your favorite browser, even if its default HTML plugin sucked… by loading a better HTML plugin. It would be nice to have that as a plugin. Screw your plug-in-phobia. Also, SWF is an open format, so in theory, other people CAN build their own flash plugins.

]]> By: Martijn http://www.hindsightlabs.com/blog/2010/01/31/the-best-way-for-adobe-to-save-flash-is-by-killing-it/comment-page-1/#comment-1422 Martijn Mon, 20 Sep 2010 19:11:36 +0000 http://www.stevenwei.com/?p=8#comment-1422 As a flash developer the performance of the new ie9 beta scares me... In a few years html5 is able to do what flash does now. So i agree on the fact that Adobe should invest in building a html5 based editor environment so i can continue to develop the ria's i develop right now in flash. As a flash developer the performance of the new ie9 beta scares me… In a few years html5 is able to do what flash does now. So i agree on the fact that Adobe should invest in building a html5 based editor environment so i can continue to develop the ria's i develop right now in flash.

]]> By: Adobe GoLive/LiveMotion Pack | VPS Managed Hosting http://www.hindsightlabs.com/blog/2010/01/31/the-best-way-for-adobe-to-save-flash-is-by-killing-it/comment-page-1/#comment-1421 Adobe GoLive/LiveMotion Pack | VPS Managed Hosting Thu, 10 Jun 2010 17:01:21 +0000 http://www.stevenwei.com/?p=8#comment-1421 [...] The most appropriate approach for Adobe to save Flash is by murdering it – Uncompiled … [...] [...] The most appropriate approach for Adobe to save Flash is by murdering it – Uncompiled … [...]

]]> By: brokenorange http://www.hindsightlabs.com/blog/2010/01/31/the-best-way-for-adobe-to-save-flash-is-by-killing-it/comment-page-1/#comment-1420 brokenorange Wed, 24 Mar 2010 16:00:15 +0000 http://www.stevenwei.com/?p=8#comment-1420 I think it would be great for Adobe to develop an authoring environment similar to flash but for the HTML5 / Java webspace. They already have several components in the current dreamweaver scheme. I think for many, it's all about workflow. I remember when Adobe introduced "smart objects" and everybody lost their freakin minds about how cool it was that you could nest objects in separate documents and update them all at once. It's only a matter of time before they build in these capabilities to their authoring environments. I'm already seeing photoshop and illustrator starting to merge. Before long, we'll have a whole new set of merged tool names (Phillistrator™, FlashWeaver™, PremierEffects™)<br><br>Adobe, like Apple, is a smart and innovative company that has seen technology rise and fall. They have created several innovative products. Some have worked and worked for years (photoshop, illustrator). And some...not so much (remember Atmosphere 3D? GoLive? LiveMotion?) Same with Apple (G4 Cube?). I think in many ways, their current product model works well, and they will continue developing modular technologies based on consumer demand.<br><br>A few years ago, we had no idea what technologies would be brought to run in Flash, and I don't think Adobe did either. It's incredible to see what people end up doing with the tools you give them. As in this post, look at the App Store. Apple had no idea what people would make the iPhone do. Now, they have had to shift their model a bit to fit the market. Apple is trying to create the best possible customer experience for their products...and I guess Flash has some bugs that make it more unstable on these devices. Overall, I do not agree with Apple's attempt at "policing" content...since in the interim we DON'T have these better authoring environments, but the internet monster continues to churn, and Adobe is already planning its next move. Could be something even more incredible than we imagine (Dreamweaver supports HTML6! AND, everytime you successfully complete a project, the software calls your mom, gives her the ingredients to the most fantastic cupcake ever, and she bakes it for you. Come to think of it, I think a baked good project model is better for everyone.)<br><br>Actually, strike all that. Google is going to become self-aware in about a year anyway...then, none of this will matter because we'll just be building what google wants to see....or are we doing that already? I think it would be great for Adobe to develop an authoring environment similar to flash but for the HTML5 / Java webspace. They already have several components in the current dreamweaver scheme. I think for many, it's all about workflow. I remember when Adobe introduced “smart objects” and everybody lost their freakin minds about how cool it was that you could nest objects in separate documents and update them all at once. It's only a matter of time before they build in these capabilities to their authoring environments. I'm already seeing photoshop and illustrator starting to merge. Before long, we'll have a whole new set of merged tool names (Phillistrator™, FlashWeaver™, PremierEffects™)

Adobe, like Apple, is a smart and innovative company that has seen technology rise and fall. They have created several innovative products. Some have worked and worked for years (photoshop, illustrator). And some…not so much (remember Atmosphere 3D? GoLive? LiveMotion?) Same with Apple (G4 Cube?). I think in many ways, their current product model works well, and they will continue developing modular technologies based on consumer demand.

A few years ago, we had no idea what technologies would be brought to run in Flash, and I don't think Adobe did either. It's incredible to see what people end up doing with the tools you give them. As in this post, look at the App Store. Apple had no idea what people would make the iPhone do. Now, they have had to shift their model a bit to fit the market. Apple is trying to create the best possible customer experience for their products…and I guess Flash has some bugs that make it more unstable on these devices. Overall, I do not agree with Apple's attempt at “policing” content…since in the interim we DON'T have these better authoring environments, but the internet monster continues to churn, and Adobe is already planning its next move. Could be something even more incredible than we imagine (Dreamweaver supports HTML6! AND, everytime you successfully complete a project, the software calls your mom, gives her the ingredients to the most fantastic cupcake ever, and she bakes it for you. Come to think of it, I think a baked good project model is better for everyone.)

Actually, strike all that. Google is going to become self-aware in about a year anyway…then, none of this will matter because we'll just be building what google wants to see….or are we doing that already?

]]> By: Flash está en aprietos | El Blog de William http://www.hindsightlabs.com/blog/2010/01/31/the-best-way-for-adobe-to-save-flash-is-by-killing-it/comment-page-1/#comment-1418 Flash está en aprietos | El Blog de William Thu, 25 Feb 2010 12:41:56 +0000 http://www.stevenwei.com/?p=8#comment-1418 [...] más radicales se fueron por la nota de fácil difusión. Adobe para salvar Flash lo tiene que matar decía Steven Wei. La gran validez de su argumento radica en que hablamos de un desarrollador [...] [...] más radicales se fueron por la nota de fácil difusión. Adobe para salvar Flash lo tiene que matar decía Steven Wei. La gran validez de su argumento radica en que hablamos de un desarrollador [...]

]]> By: Devo usar Adobe Flex para desenvolver | greycoast http://www.hindsightlabs.com/blog/2010/01/31/the-best-way-for-adobe-to-save-flash-is-by-killing-it/comment-page-1/#comment-1417 Devo usar Adobe Flex para desenvolver | greycoast Sat, 13 Feb 2010 20:06:33 +0000 http://www.stevenwei.com/?p=8#comment-1417 [...] o post The best way for Adobe to save Flash is by killing it de Steven Wei ele cita o caso do OS X em que qualquer requisição HTTP retorna o status 0. Se [...] [...] o post The best way for Adobe to save Flash is by killing it de Steven Wei ele cita o caso do OS X em que qualquer requisição HTTP retorna o status 0. Se [...]

]]> By: Twitter Weekly Updates for 2010-02-07 | Cavalcade Games Blog http://www.hindsightlabs.com/blog/2010/01/31/the-best-way-for-adobe-to-save-flash-is-by-killing-it/comment-page-1/#comment-1416 Twitter Weekly Updates for 2010-02-07 | Cavalcade Games Blog Sun, 07 Feb 2010 09:06:48 +0000 http://www.stevenwei.com/?p=8#comment-1416 [...] next. so its close (at last!) in reply to weheartgames #The best way to save Flash is to kill it. http://www.stevenwei.com/2010/01/31/the-best-way-for-adobe-to-save-flash-is-by-killing-it/ #We have to release an iphone game before the 28th to get an awesome freebie from Adobe. #What if [...] [...] next. so its close (at last!) in reply to weheartgames #The best way to save Flash is to kill it. http://www.stevenwei.com/2010/01/31/the-best-way-for-adobe-to-save-flash-is-by-killing-it/ #We have to release an iphone game before the 28th to get an awesome freebie from Adobe. #What if [...]

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